WEBVTT 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:15.600 Got it. Okay. And then, you know, there's oral histories and documentaries that you can find as 00:00:15.600 --> 00:00:22.720 well. There's several oral histories of moments in time or about people. You know, there's 00:00:22.720 --> 00:00:29.680 entertainment. There's music. There's television. There's commercials. There's movies. There's 00:00:29.680 --> 00:00:35.520 old-time radio dramas. There's theater performances. There's commentaries. And there are things that 00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:41.920 you might have never even considered, like, for instance, say, a police scanner or a 911 call. 00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:48.560 This sounds extremely, extremely broad, but I think about archival tape as literally any sound 00:00:48.560 --> 00:00:54.640 that's ever been recorded. And then it's a treasure hunt to go and find it. But it means that the 00:00:54.640 --> 00:01:00.960 possibilities for finding and using that tape are pretty endless, which is extremely exciting for 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:06.160 audio storytellers. Any questions so far or anything that comes to mind that you're like, 00:01:06.160 --> 00:01:16.160 "Hey, is this qualifies archival tape?" Cool. I'll keep going. Great. Okay. So, like, why use it? 00:01:16.160 --> 00:01:23.040 Why do we want to use archival tape? The thing about it is that it can and it should 00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:31.760 transport your audience. That should be to a time or to a place. It should add a lot of emotional 00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:40.240 texture so it can delight you. It can satin you. It can also add information. So, the way that I 00:01:40.240 --> 00:01:46.480 think about it, and this is every type of story I've ever done, any type of story I've reported at 00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:54.080 NPR, at the Scripps Washington Bureau, at the Daily or Produced, I think of archival tape as my 00:01:54.080 --> 00:02:01.120 storytelling partner, which means at the beginning of my process every single time, you should just 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:07.280 constantly be asking yourself, "Is there archival tape to help bring this part of my story to life? 00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:13.600 What did this moment in time, what did this place, what did this person sound like?" 00:02:13.600 --> 00:02:19.760 I have a colleague on the team. If you listen to the Daily, you've probably heard her, 00:02:19.760 --> 00:02:26.160 especially her incredible Afghanistan coverage, Lindsay Garrison. And she said to me one time 00:02:26.160 --> 00:02:33.200 that the best audio story is like a photograph. And it's all about bringing that photograph to life. 00:02:33.200 --> 00:02:37.840 So, if you picture a photograph, you know, you have your character, but then you have the foreground, 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:44.960 the background, the little details, think of archival tape as being able to kind of help 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:53.440 you paint that picture. And like I said, archival tape should be a fundamental part of that photograph. 00:02:53.440 --> 00:02:59.360 I cannot, I really can't emphasize it enough, that it should be part of your storytelling, 00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:05.600 your reporting from the very beginning, because it's just going to help you when you get into 00:03:05.600 --> 00:03:11.200 production stages as well. Just, you know, from the very beginning, when you're thinking of the 00:03:11.200 --> 00:03:18.880 story that you want to tell, think really hard about the places that you think that archival 00:03:18.880 --> 00:03:26.640 tape can kind of bring your story to life and elevate your story. So, here's my philosophy 00:03:26.640 --> 00:03:33.680 around tape, which is that it should always be intentional. I'll get into this a little bit 00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:39.120 later, but you don't want just like a random piece of archival tape here and there, because it's 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:45.920 going to interrupt your listening experience. So, the kind of incredible thing about audio is 00:03:45.920 --> 00:03:53.520 it's so intimate, like you're actually inviting somebody to be inside your ears. And that's kind 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:58.240 of like a privilege, I think, when it comes to storytelling and audio storytelling. And so, 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:04.720 you don't want some, apologize if you hear the siren in the background of my camera, but you 00:04:04.720 --> 00:04:09.200 don't want a piece of tape to come in and do like, where did that come from? And so, you need to think 00:04:09.200 --> 00:04:15.760 really intentionally about why am I looking for archival tape and what am I hoping to achieve 00:04:15.760 --> 00:04:22.000 with it. So, that kind of goes back to the, using it as your storytelling partner. You know, you 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:27.360 might be going out of story with like an actual like co-reporter or trying to tell, like create 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:33.040 an audio piece with somebody else. The archival tape should be there right along for the journey. 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:41.920 You know, you might, I think about it as evidence. So, to me, like in the clearest 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:48.400 terms possible, I think of archival tape as somebody is going to be making a point in narration. 00:04:48.400 --> 00:04:54.560 And if I can, let me back it up with archival tape. So, for instance, somebody is saying, 00:04:55.280 --> 00:05:03.440 I went to, you know, I went to, we just, we just did an episode today about the 00:05:03.440 --> 00:05:10.480 Kyle Rittenhouse shooting in trial in Kenosha. Somebody is going to be describing on the ground 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:17.120 what it felt like. That is only going to go so far as actually hearing on the ground what it 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:25.760 actually sounded and felt like. And so, every time it's possible to, when you're kind of characterizing 00:05:25.760 --> 00:05:31.680 something, try to find the tape that's going to back you up or back your source up in what they are 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:37.440 saying. So, I think about every, and that kind of speaks to the intentionality of it, as that I 00:05:37.440 --> 00:05:44.240 want my tape to kind of intentionally be backing up the point that I'm making. So, any questions so far? 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:58.000 Great. Okay. So, I want to kind of walk through the ways that I hear this philosophy play out and the 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:04.480 way that I hear tape as evidence. So, there's a lot of different ways to use archival tape. One is to 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:11.840 convey a sense of scope. So, scope allows you in your storytelling to also indicate like an 00:06:11.840 --> 00:06:16.880 image. So, I want to play for you something that one of the producers on the daily, Michael Simon 00:06:16.880 --> 00:06:23.280 Johnson, he is like a complete wizard when it comes to finding tape and using it. He makes these 00:06:23.280 --> 00:06:31.200 things that we call montage mahal. Because they're so big and robust with tape. And so, this example 00:06:31.200 --> 00:06:39.120 to me is a good representation of tape demonstrating scope to show you that something is happening 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:45.280 in a lot of different places. So, let me find it. All right. 00:06:45.280 --> 00:06:52.720 On Broadway. Get your tickets today. That's an ad, but here we go. So, this is just to place you 00:06:52.720 --> 00:07:01.280 in time a little bit. This is in February of 2020. If you all can imagine back then, basically, 00:07:02.640 --> 00:07:12.480 the coronavirus was spreading across the globe. And so, Michael Simon Johnson put together 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:16.160 this beginning to the episode to kind of convey that. So, I'm going to play it for you now. 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:23.200 Across the world, there are rising concerns of a potential coronavirus pandemic after a major 00:07:23.200 --> 00:07:30.560 jump in cases outside of China. From the New York Times, I'm Michael Labarro. This is the daily. 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:40.400 30 countries and territories, nearly 80,000 cases today. South Korea, which is now 750 cases or more. 00:07:40.400 --> 00:07:45.120 And in Iran, where there have been close to 100 cases and the death toll is 15. 00:07:46.640 --> 00:07:53.200 What began as a public health crisis in China is well on its way to becoming a pandemic. 00:07:53.200 --> 00:07:56.160 It's still unclear how the virus made it into Italy. 00:07:56.160 --> 00:08:03.360 Four new cases here on French territory. Canada, Austria, Switzerland, and Croatia 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:09.840 all confirming their first cases now. The CDC in the last hour warned Americans to prepare for the 00:08:09.840 --> 00:08:16.320 possibility of an outbreak. So, that's just kind of an example. So, do you hear how we're pulling 00:08:16.320 --> 00:08:23.440 that's the use of newsreel? So, that's newsreel conveying that COVID is spreading. It's spreading 00:08:23.440 --> 00:08:28.880 across the world. And you also kind of hear the tape conveying a sense of urgency. It's talking 00:08:28.880 --> 00:08:34.880 about all the different countries. It's talking about the number of cases rising. So, think about 00:08:34.880 --> 00:08:40.720 how much boring it would have been for Michael Barbaro to just say COVID has left China. It's 00:08:40.720 --> 00:08:46.960 spreading across the world. What does it sound like to actually spread across the world? And this 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:54.560 is what it sounds like. And you're kind of hearing how the tape escalates and it's pacing. So, it's 00:08:54.560 --> 00:08:58.160 one place, it's one place, it's another place, and then it's a bunch of places all at once. 00:08:58.160 --> 00:09:06.080 So, think about tape in your storytelling. You kind of need to convey global reach or span. 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:11.040 It doesn't have to be global. It could be across the five boroughs of New York City. It could be 00:09:11.040 --> 00:09:19.280 across the United States. So, let tape do some work for you of saying that this thing that's 00:09:19.280 --> 00:09:27.360 happening, it's a lot of different places. There's a different version of scope, too. And I just want 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:33.440 to warn you all, this is a moment talking about me, too. So, I just wanted to give that heads up. 00:09:34.560 --> 00:09:41.040 But Claire Tennis-Better, another producer on my team, does this thing every year at the end of 00:09:41.040 --> 00:09:47.840 the year, which is the year in sound. So, if you want to hear what the whole year in sound has 00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:55.920 sounded like, she works on it basically all year. But she wanted to demonstrate how me, too, had 00:09:55.920 --> 00:10:03.920 started out with one person, like this is New York Times reporting about Harvey Weinstein, 00:10:03.920 --> 00:10:10.640 and then how it grew into something much bigger. And so, here we're talking about scale. So, in 00:10:10.640 --> 00:10:17.200 the previous example with COVID, it was indicating geographic spread. Here we're going to talk just 00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:24.800 about the increasing scope of something. So, let me find, all right, 12-22. Okay. 00:10:24.800 --> 00:10:31.680 So, we began looking around and we started hearing rumors over and over again about Harvey 00:10:31.680 --> 00:10:42.400 Weinstein. He said, "Will you give me a massage?" And I said, "No. No. Not comfortable doing that." 00:10:42.400 --> 00:10:49.600 And he said, "Oh, come on. Everybody does it." The number of women now accusing Harvey Weinstein 00:10:49.600 --> 00:10:56.160 of some kind of sexual misconduct is more than 20. Let me be very clear. There is no excuse for this 00:10:56.160 --> 00:11:03.440 alleged behavior. It is systematic and pervasive. Women cannot achieve equality in the workplace 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:06.560 or in society until there is a reckoning. 00:11:06.560 --> 00:11:16.640 Actor Ben Affleck, a day after condemning Weinstein, is now apologizing for past behavior of his 00:11:16.640 --> 00:11:22.640 own. Charlie Rose is the latest high-profile man to face sexual abuse allegations. New allegations 00:11:22.640 --> 00:11:28.160 against Matt Lauer nearly a day after NBC News announced his firing. Minnesota Senator Al Franken 00:11:28.160 --> 00:11:34.480 is accused of kissing and groping a woman without her consent. The fifth woman, number five, to come 00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:42.080 forward to say Roy Moore sexually assaulted her when she was 16 years old. And she's now in 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:50.560 a criminal investigation for lens... Metropolitan Opera Connector. Okay. So, that, you're hearing the 00:11:50.560 --> 00:11:57.440 tape all back-to-back doing something here again, which is scope, but in a different way. It's an 00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:05.120 escalation and it's conveying just how widespread this horrific problem is. So, if you want to make 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:12.640 the point in your storytelling that something is happening, not just if it's a widespread problem, 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:22.320 think about how tape can do that for you as well. And so, the other thing that you hear in that is 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:33.360 that the tape initially starts kind of going in between the narrator and the tape, and then suddenly 00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:41.520 the tape starts to kind of carry all on its own. So, that's the thing to kind of think about too, 00:12:41.520 --> 00:12:48.080 is do you want the tape to move in conjunction with you as the narrator? So, it might be 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:54.000 narrator tape-tape, narrator tape, narrator tape, you know, however you want to do that, or do you 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:59.680 want the tape to just kind of start to take over the story itself and do that work? And so, when 00:12:59.680 --> 00:13:07.520 the tape starts to kind of take over itself, that is what we refer to a lot of times... There's 00:13:07.520 --> 00:13:11.760 different ways to refer to it. I remember at MTR, I heard it first as a waterfall, and I had no 00:13:11.760 --> 00:13:16.640 idea what that meant, but a montage or a waterfall. And that's when you're just... The tape is just 00:13:16.640 --> 00:13:21.840 kind of existing on its own, and there's not anybody talking around it. The tape is just kind 00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:27.040 of piling up on each other, and this kind of speaks to intentionality too. Like, why do you want the 00:13:27.040 --> 00:13:33.920 piling up to happen? What's the intention of a lot of the same thing happening again and again? 00:13:33.920 --> 00:13:41.360 Like, what are you trying to convey there? So, then, this is big freezing archival tape. Does 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:48.080 anybody have any questions about scope? Using tape for scope? Yeah, I just wanted to ask you, 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:53.360 those little snippets you were taking, two to three seconds, that's well within fair use, right? 00:13:53.360 --> 00:14:01.280 From your point of view. Yes, I mean, it's very, very quick. Yes, so, you know, again, there's going 00:14:01.280 --> 00:14:08.000 to be people who are much like... I know everything that we do is under it, and we get it approved, 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:14.000 but yes, so it's just little snippets here and there, so we're changing the tape and everything. 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:24.480 So, you mind if I just say one thing about fair use? Just because, you know, to go to carry out 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:29.360 sort of like my duty in terms of the library and advising about issues around copyright, 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:36.160 is that fair use is really about the way you are using the material, the context, and the 00:14:36.160 --> 00:14:41.760 way that you are transforming the copyrighted material that you're using. So, it's not so much 00:14:41.760 --> 00:14:46.720 about the length of the material, but how much you're using in reference to the work as a whole 00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:50.400 and the way that you're using it. If you have further questions about fair use, feel free to 00:14:50.400 --> 00:14:53.600 reach out to me. I can put you in contact with our Copyright Advisory Services Director, 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:59.120 just to sort of like cut in and do that sort of due diligence, but... 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:05.440 Yes, thank you. I know I'm always like, okay, it's like how you are using it. Yeah, exactly, 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:09.440 exactly. So, does anybody else have any questions on scope? 00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:20.080 Okay, so the next big part of storytelling is that every story has a series of defining moments 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:26.800 that make the story what it is. So, sometimes I think about those as inflection points. So, 00:15:26.800 --> 00:15:34.000 what's the inflection point of a story? And actually, as an example of that, I actually want 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:40.800 to play... Oopsies. Oh, here we go. Sometimes I do that. I accidentally scroll on the wrong thing. 00:15:40.800 --> 00:15:47.680 So, how do you bring to life the defining moment of a particular story that you're trying to tell? 00:15:47.680 --> 00:15:53.600 And I want to play you an example of an episode for Shoe Leather that Rachel Bailey and Clara 00:15:53.600 --> 00:16:00.160 Murray did last year, or, yeah, no, this year, earlier this year. But this is the opening to 00:16:00.160 --> 00:16:04.960 their whole episode, and they're going to tell you a little mini story and listen out to... 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:11.440 about a particular moment in New York City's history. So, listen to how they use tape to help 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:22.800 do that. Okay. July 13, 1977. It was a hot, muggy night in New York City. The New York Mets were 00:16:22.800 --> 00:16:27.520 playing the Chicago Cubs at Shea Stadium, and the Mets were losing again. 00:16:27.520 --> 00:16:38.160 My dad, Vincent Tamari, has been a Mets fan for decades. That night, he was listening to the 00:16:38.160 --> 00:16:43.600 game over the radio from his apartment on the Upper West Side. But then, something strange happened. 00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:50.240 All of a sudden, I hear the announcer saying, "Well, the lights have just gone off here at Shea 00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:56.800 Stadium." "All the lights are going off in the stadium." "They've had a power failure here at Shea 00:16:56.800 --> 00:17:01.840 Stadium. The lights are all off when they come to the emergency." "A second or two after that, 00:17:02.880 --> 00:17:09.920 all the lights went off in my apartment. It was pitch dark all of a sudden. So, 00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:19.840 I knew immediately that this blackout was a city-wide blackout." The New York Blackout of 1977 00:17:19.840 --> 00:17:25.680 looms large in our collective memory as an almost mythic event. "The New York City area and its 10 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:30.080 million people were blacked out last night by an electrical power failure that all..." "For many, 00:17:30.080 --> 00:17:36.160 it encapsulates the slide New York City had taken in the 1970s, a slide into crime and into urban 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:41.680 chaos." "The Mary-Cabra had been declared a state of emergency." "Because when the lights went out, 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:46.560 so did people's inhibitions." Some looters roamed the streets yelling, "It's Christmas time, it's 00:17:46.560 --> 00:17:52.160 Christmas time." And so it was as thousands of them broke security fences and windows and helped 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:57.600 themselves to all kinds of merchandise when the blackout came. "It was mayhem in New York." 00:17:57.600 --> 00:18:02.080 "There was looting throughout the city in Times Square, Harlem, Brooklyn, Queens, and..." 00:18:02.080 --> 00:18:07.280 "It's all the looting, all the check." "Okay, so you should definitely listen to all the 00:18:07.280 --> 00:18:12.080 Shula there episodes, but I love that one. It's like a murder mystery. It's very, very good. 00:18:12.080 --> 00:18:19.760 But there, they're really using tapes so well to kind of bring to life this defining moment for 00:18:19.760 --> 00:18:27.360 New York City. And I loved that they put it in the perspective of a singular character who is 00:18:27.360 --> 00:18:33.040 just happens to be Claire's father and he's watching the game. So then they recreated that 00:18:33.040 --> 00:18:39.280 moment through the sound. They found the exact game. They found the moment when the commentators 00:18:39.280 --> 00:18:46.000 are commentating that the lights have gone out. So, and then they use the tape to also demonstrate 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:51.760 what happened next. So you're hearing people describe kind of the mayhem on the streets of 00:18:51.760 --> 00:18:59.040 New York City. But again, think about if they had just said that to you with no tape. Like, I 00:18:59.040 --> 00:19:07.120 wasn't alive in 1977. I don't know how that moment sounded in time, but their use of the tape is 00:19:07.120 --> 00:19:13.200 kind of bringing that moment to life for me as a listener and really conveying kind of like the 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:20.000 urgency of the moment as well. So I very much love that. I think they did such a great job. And, 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:26.720 you know, they're also too, they're kind of backing up what they're saying. Like, I know they 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:32.560 weren't alive in 1977. And they've done reporting on that as well. But the tape, like I was saying 00:19:32.560 --> 00:19:40.160 about tape as evidence, tape is kind of bringing to life what they're describing as well. So here, 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:46.080 I want to play for you something that I made. Forgive me for having to, oh, I already have a 00:19:46.080 --> 00:19:57.520 pull up. So we did an episode, oh, I guess in 2019, I think when it was the, when impeachment proceedings 00:19:57.520 --> 00:20:03.840 were about to get underway for President Trump for Ukraine. And I wanted to do a story about, okay, 00:20:03.840 --> 00:20:09.200 so what, what did it sound like the last time that a president faced an impeachment trial? And that 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:16.960 was in 1966, 1996 with Bill Clinton, President Bill Clinton. And so what I'm going to play for 00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:23.360 you first is just the reporter, Peter Baker, talking and describing what it sounded like. And 00:20:23.360 --> 00:20:28.080 then I'm going to play for you the difference so that you hear what it sounds like with tape. So 00:20:28.080 --> 00:20:35.760 here's Peter just talking. The House impeachment process was divided and divisive. The Democrats 00:20:35.760 --> 00:20:39.840 wanted to encourage this idea that the Republicans were being partisan because that was going to 00:20:39.840 --> 00:20:45.840 be their defense. Their defense was they're coming after our guy, it's illegitimate, it's a witch hunt, 00:20:45.840 --> 00:20:51.440 it's a coup, you may recognize some of these terms. And so by the time the issue reaches the 00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:56.960 House floor for a vote, the country is kind of convulsing here. Okay, so that's Peter just 00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:04.640 describing it. Now here's Peter describing kind of the acrimony between Republicans. So he's 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:09.200 describing acrimony, right? Like, so who's what's the intentionality of what he's saying? The 00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:15.040 intentionality of the tape that I'm going to find is that I want to hear that acrimony playing out 00:21:15.040 --> 00:21:23.040 in Congress. So here's Peter with tape now. The House impeachment process was divided and divisive. 00:21:23.040 --> 00:21:29.200 The president had an affair. He lied about it. He didn't want anyone to know about it. Does anyone 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:34.880 reasonably believe that this amounts to subversion of government? Does anyone reasonably believe 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:39.680 that this is what the founding fathers were talking about? The Democrats wanted to encourage 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:43.760 this idea that the Republicans were being partisan because that was going to be their defense. 00:21:43.760 --> 00:21:49.280 This is indeed a Republican coup d'etat. Their defense was they're coming after our guy, 00:21:49.280 --> 00:21:55.040 it's illegitimate, it's a witch hunt, it's a coup, you may recognize some of these terms. 00:21:55.040 --> 00:22:01.200 This march to impeachment is an attempt to undo and overthrow a duly elected president 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:06.960 and ignores the will of the people. Okay, so that's enough. But do you hear the difference 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:11.840 and when it's just Peter explaining it and then when it's Peter explaining it and then the tape 00:22:11.840 --> 00:22:17.680 bringing it to life? So again, here we have kind of a moment in time and the tape is helping to 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:23.920 animate that and the tape is backing up what Peter is saying. So when I'm thinking about going to find 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:29.040 tape, which I'll go through some resources here in a little bit, I'm thinking like, all right, 00:22:29.040 --> 00:22:34.720 what has this person just said? And what are the things that I need to go find to bring that to 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:40.160 life? And you want this is like a key thing I should have said about tape to tape needs to be 00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:47.040 like interesting. Unless you intentionally want something to sound boring, tape should feel animated, 00:22:47.040 --> 00:22:52.080 it should feel passionate, it should feel energetic. So you hear the anger amongst Democrats 00:22:52.080 --> 00:22:57.440 in that moment over this impeachment trial of their president. So you don't want somebody just 00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:01.680 being like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like, yada, yada, yada, like, yeah, I'm mad about this, 00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:09.040 like, no, let's, let's hear it, let's hear it. So the other thing that tape can really help you to do 00:23:09.040 --> 00:23:17.360 is to bring characters to life as part of your storytelling. So for instance, you know, hopefully 00:23:17.360 --> 00:23:20.880 you're getting to talk to a lot of people, you have a lot of different voices, you have a lot of 00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:26.160 different sources. But sometimes it's just not possible to talk to somebody, but they're going 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:32.080 to be on or like in the telling of somebody else's story, they're going to bring up other people. 00:23:32.080 --> 00:23:38.560 But like, you might not be able to talk to that person. So I think it was last, I can't remember 00:23:38.560 --> 00:23:44.640 what it was, it was this year, geez, sorry, I'm losing track of time. We did an episode with our 00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:52.960 media columnist, Ben Smith, about this $2.5 billion lawsuit against Fox News for voter fraud 00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:59.520 allegations during the election. And for that episode, Ben interviewed the CEO of this company 00:23:59.520 --> 00:24:06.480 called Smartmatic and their lawyer. But very important characters to this story are somebody 00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:14.400 like Rudy Giuliani. And so we wanted to kind of bring to life, like through this CEO's eyes, 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:20.560 like how he's hearing Rudy Giuliani talk about his own company. So Rudy Giuliani is a, 00:24:20.560 --> 00:24:26.960 he's not the main character of the story, but he's a character in this story. So what does it 00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:33.120 sound like? What does he as a character in this context sound like? So I'm going to play this for 00:24:33.120 --> 00:24:40.800 you. Okay. Smartmatic pop up in the "Distiny of Antonio's Dreams" and then comes last November. 00:24:40.800 --> 00:24:48.560 And so tell me when do you first hear the name Smartmatic pop up in the discussion of the election? 00:24:48.560 --> 00:24:53.840 It was, I forget the exact date. Former New York City mayor and President Trump's personal 00:24:53.840 --> 00:24:58.320 attorney, Rudy Giuliani, is working to establish how many legal votes were actually cast and he 00:24:58.320 --> 00:25:03.520 joins me right now. You know, it was kind of four or five days after the election the first time 00:25:03.520 --> 00:25:08.560 that I think. Good morning, Rick. It was Giuliani that said something. I mean, it's way beyond what 00:25:08.560 --> 00:25:16.720 people think, including a very, very dangerous foreign company, I mean, completely unexpected. 00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:22.720 The software that they use is done by a company called Smartmatic. The gist of these allegations 00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:26.720 was the Dominion, the company whose voting machines were actually used in some swing 00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:31.920 states like Georgia, was using Smartmatic software and that that software was flipping 00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:37.360 votes from Donald Trump to Joe Biden. And this company has tried and true methods for fixing 00:25:37.360 --> 00:25:43.520 elections. And bound up in that idea was this idea that Venezuela, which is where Antonio is from 00:25:43.520 --> 00:25:48.400 and which was one of his first customers, was somehow part of these shady dealings. The company 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:56.400 that was founded by Chavez and by Chavez is two allies and still own it. It's been used to cheat 00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:01.360 in elections in South America. You know, of course, one thing you'd never want to see is. 00:26:01.360 --> 00:26:09.760 Okay. So basically, so our main character of this episode is the CEO of this company. 00:26:09.760 --> 00:26:16.080 However, somebody like Rudy Giuliani is kind of like a secondary character. So we're able to use 00:26:16.080 --> 00:26:21.920 tape and we're able to use, like he's describing watching this exact moment on television happen. 00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:27.680 And so we're bringing that to life. So you'll kind of notice some crossover and what I'm saying 00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:34.000 of bringing moments to life and bringing characters to life. So there's a lot of crossover that 00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:42.480 happens here. So the, so that's kind of an example of brain characters life. And then, 00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:50.960 you know, you can kind of use tape to help you tell part of the story that your reporter is kind 00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:56.800 of studying that or I'm sorry, your your narrator, maybe it's you is kind of setting up and describing. 00:26:56.800 --> 00:27:03.520 So we talk about all of this as scenes. So on the daily, the word that we throw around a lot is 00:27:03.520 --> 00:27:10.160 like, what is this scene? And it's very, very broad. But for it to me, a scene indicates like, 00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:14.240 okay, we're going to use production here to kind of alert to the listener, like, 00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:18.800 hey, pay attention to this part of the story. Like, I'm going to take you to a moment in time. 00:27:18.800 --> 00:27:24.800 I'm going to take you to a place in time. So the most successful type of scene, and that's all that 00:27:24.800 --> 00:27:30.240 that we're talking about here, like makes the listener feel like they're experiencing it in 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:36.800 real time. They're back in that place, they're back in that moment. And so we did an episode about 00:27:36.800 --> 00:27:46.080 the 2000 election. And our, our, our reporter for that is a he's like a he's a media reporter, 00:27:46.080 --> 00:27:51.520 basically. And he was doing this episode focus in part on the beginning about the rush of the 00:27:51.520 --> 00:27:57.920 networks to declare the winner in Bush v Gore. So he's going to kind of transport us back to 00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:04.320 that moment and kind of describe how the networks were making their calls. So let's see, is it this 00:28:04.320 --> 00:28:13.040 one? Okay, and the networks cover. All right. The massive was in 2000. And just to start, 00:28:13.040 --> 00:28:20.400 what were you doing back then the night of November 7 2000? Oh, God, it's, it's like an acid 00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:28.880 flatback. What that is like, but of course, it was an insane night. I was a real cub reporter 00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:31.200 covering the networks covering the election night. 00:28:39.600 --> 00:28:44.000 There's so much pomp and circumstance around these election nights, it become its own show. 00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:50.480 And welcome to what promises to be a long and exciting night. And it really became like this 00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:56.880 competition for bragging rights among the three broadcast networks. Back at CBS News election 00:28:56.880 --> 00:29:02.160 headquarters in New York, the presidential race is cracking like a hickory fire here. 00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:07.440 NBC CBS ABC. And with an enormous team of people all over the country tonight, we're going to try 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:12.000 to make it fun and exciting. It is inherently exciting already. And we're sitting around 00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:17.520 looking up back this big old fashioned TV, switching the channels with the remote and seeing 00:29:17.520 --> 00:29:23.520 who is going to call the presidency first. Now the polls closed about an hour ago in two states. 00:29:23.520 --> 00:29:29.120 So we've already made some projections. Is it going to be Al Gore, the vice president long 00:29:29.120 --> 00:29:36.320 suffered. Okay, so here you're kind of hearing him offer a commentary on the networks and how they're 00:29:36.320 --> 00:29:44.640 kind of gearing up for the 2000 election and an election night. And so then he goes on to describe 00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:50.800 the networks give us the networks take it away. And we're hearing all of that and sound because 00:29:50.800 --> 00:29:57.280 we're taking the listener back to that moment. So okay, the best use of tape 00:29:57.280 --> 00:30:05.520 tries to incorporate all of this, if not, like most of this, if not all of this. So the things 00:30:05.520 --> 00:30:11.440 to keep in mind, tape should be intentional. Like why do you want tape to be in this particular 00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:18.960 moment? Are you bringing a person to life, or are you taking your audience back to a time or a place? 00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:25.680 Or are you conveying like some sense of scope or scale in your story. So those are the things 00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:31.440 that I'm always kind of weighing when I'm thinking about tape. So let's talk any questions so far. 00:30:33.840 --> 00:30:41.840 Oh, wait, to see something in the chat, I should. Okay. Oh, yes. Okay, so we yeah, like how old are 00:30:41.840 --> 00:30:46.720 we talking here, Rebecca? Because we're about to get into I'm sorry, I'm just seeing your 00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:50.240 seeing your question. But you said some of my defining moments have recorded content, very, 00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:54.240 very old recorded content, recommendations and how to search out those resources. 00:30:54.240 --> 00:31:01.920 So there's, there's a book called Sonic Color Line. And in the section on lynching there, 00:31:03.040 --> 00:31:11.120 the author states that they used to do recorded reenactments of lynching to play at 00:31:11.120 --> 00:31:20.720 at county fairs. For entertainment, although, you know, there's only white people could go to 00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:32.240 county fairs. And this is like, I don't know, 1919, 19. Yes. So I would say something like that, 00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:38.640 you could reach out to the to those areas, like if there are specific examples, I would reach out 00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:45.760 to them. But also, like the Library of Congress, and the National Archives has an unbelievable 00:31:45.760 --> 00:31:53.360 amount of resources for finding archival tape, the this is 1619 project that the Times did. I 00:31:53.360 --> 00:31:58.560 didn't, I didn't have the opportunity to produce any of that. But I know my colleague had found 00:31:59.920 --> 00:32:04.320 through, I think it was the National Archives, I think she reached out to them. And they had had 00:32:04.320 --> 00:32:12.080 recordings of a of a former slave, like describing his experience. So something old like that, 00:32:12.080 --> 00:32:18.160 like I would, I would maybe go like, I don't know from the thing is, is like always going to the 00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:25.120 places or calling up the places and their libraries. No, no luck there. Maybe the National Archives, 00:32:25.120 --> 00:32:31.360 maybe the National Archives or the Library of Congress. Yes, or right, sure, old time. Yep, 00:32:31.360 --> 00:32:39.040 exactly. So I hope that I hope that's helpful. But but yeah, the National Archives, Library of 00:32:39.040 --> 00:32:45.840 Congress, all of that is pretty incredible for finding old timey stuff. So, okay, let me see. 00:32:45.840 --> 00:32:53.600 Great. Okay, so where to think about finding newsrail. There is a resource called archive.org 00:32:53.600 --> 00:32:59.760 that is great for finding little news clips after 2009. You can search by program, you can 00:32:59.760 --> 00:33:08.000 search by date, it's great for making montages. But also just in general archive.org is an incredible 00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:14.720 resource. I mean, basically, like, any type of thing that you want to find archive probably has it. 00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:20.720 And you can search they have all kinds of different sections. And also they have something 00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:27.360 called the Wayback Machine. So this is really helpful for finding old websites. So not necessarily 00:33:27.360 --> 00:33:32.320 audio, but it might have audio, but I was just working on an episode where I was trying to find 00:33:32.320 --> 00:33:38.320 a website from 2003. And I searched it in the in the Wayback Machine, and I was able to find a 00:33:38.320 --> 00:33:44.880 website. So the Wayback Machine like has stuff archived from, I mean, look at this 624 billion 00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:53.120 web pages is kind of incredible. But I definitely recommend going to archive. Anything that you're 00:33:53.120 --> 00:33:59.920 kind of looking for it has all these different resources. It's pretty pretty like Russian audio 00:33:59.920 --> 00:34:06.800 books who knew. So definitely bookmark archive.org archive. I like cannot sing their praises enough 00:34:06.800 --> 00:34:14.400 archive is great. The other places you can look is something like the American archive of public 00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:21.040 broadcasting. So this is digitized recordings from public radio and television going back all the 00:34:21.040 --> 00:34:27.120 way to the 50s. So this is a great resource for something like the 70s. Sometimes there are 00:34:27.120 --> 00:34:32.240 decades where it's really hard to go back and find shoot, sorry, where it's really hard to go back 00:34:32.240 --> 00:34:40.400 and find tape. But this is a resource that MPR points to I'll show you the the MPR guide as well 00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:45.360 that is really, really helpful. This I'm realizing I have all this stuff about the 70s because shoe 00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:52.320 leather was focused on the 1970s. And so that's why I'm referencing the 1970s so much. So 00:34:52.320 --> 00:35:02.560 American archive of public broadcasting that'll take you here. You can search all these different 00:35:02.560 --> 00:35:11.680 exhibits. It's super super helpful. Then the Associated Press, Getty. These are different 00:35:11.680 --> 00:35:17.920 places that you can kind of mine for stuff as well. So got my favorite government in action, 00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:24.960 trying to find our government doing its thing or not doing its thing sometimes. C-SPAN is like my 00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:31.440 favorite thing of all time. They just have recorded basically every corner of government for the past 00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:41.280 like 40 years. So C-SPAN is fantastic. A tip on C-SPAN, use Safari as your search engine for it 00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:48.720 because on Chrome, Google Chrome, it tends to glitch a little bit. And so it can kind of pause 00:35:48.720 --> 00:35:52.480 and if you're in the middle of like trying to like get audio and it pauses it can be kind of 00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:57.760 frustrating. So I always use it on Safari. But for something like this, like I remember looking up 00:35:57.760 --> 00:36:04.160 like polio vaccine and you can see it's not only people talking about it, but there's like 00:36:04.160 --> 00:36:12.640 they will go back in time and kind of do some old timey work as well. They'll have like they have 00:36:12.640 --> 00:36:19.120 like Bay of Pigs kind of newsreel and things like that. So definitely check out C-SPAN. 00:36:19.120 --> 00:36:27.120 Basically anything past or present, I believe going back to 1979. So C-SPAN is a fantastic resource. 00:36:27.680 --> 00:36:34.960 The White House has its own YouTube channel. It changes with each administration. So just 00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:40.320 something to keep in mind, but the White House will have like press briefings. It'll have speeches. 00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:44.480 It'll have all of that. So for the current administration, the White House's YouTube 00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:49.760 channel is very helpful. But there's also presidential libraries for former presidents. 00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:54.000 So definitely kind of check out what you're able to find there. I think every president 00:36:54.560 --> 00:37:02.160 with digitized recordings has a presidential library. So that's very helpful. And then the 00:37:02.160 --> 00:37:09.280 Supreme Court has always done oral arguments. But what's very new, like for the first time ever, 00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:13.520 is their live streaming them. The Supreme Court only used to release their oral arguments on 00:37:13.520 --> 00:37:20.400 Fridays, but now they're releasing them in real time. So I love using Supreme Court oral arguments 00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:29.280 and listening to the live coverage of that. So I haven't perused this much, but there's the New 00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:33.280 York State. If you need something, this was kind of for shoe leather. They were looking for city and 00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:39.920 state government. I just can't recommend enough like getting out and like going to the library too, 00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:45.920 and just like go to the archives, find the archives of a city or anything that you can find and just 00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:51.200 like get out there and see what they have digitized. Like the or not digitized and you can go and 00:37:51.200 --> 00:37:56.480 record it. But libraries are kind of like, I think one of your best friends in trying to find tape 00:37:56.480 --> 00:38:03.440 as well. So yeah, so this is what I was saying about the National Archives, the Library of Congress. 00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:10.320 NPR has this training guide that is very, very helpful. So NPR kind of talks you through their 00:38:11.600 --> 00:38:19.280 philosophy of archival tape and there's C-SPAN, there's the Internet Archive. So NPR has a great 00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:26.640 resource too that you can kind of like sports clips, all of that. And yeah, and you know, they 00:38:26.640 --> 00:38:33.680 warn like, you know, you need to keep time in mind for requesting licensing, etc. But this 00:38:33.680 --> 00:38:40.720 this is called training.npr.org. NPR has actually just like great training for audio in general. 00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:48.240 So definitely check out like, I think if you just Google NPR training, you might be able to find 00:38:48.240 --> 00:38:53.920 stuff this way as well. And I'm happy to send along links afterwards as well. But yeah, the NPR 00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:59.680 training guide is NPR is I didn't start out in audio. So NPR is really where I learned audio. 00:38:59.680 --> 00:39:03.680 And the first time somebody asked me to make a waterfall, I had no idea what they were talking 00:39:03.680 --> 00:39:09.200 about. But then I kind of started to learn like, okay, here's the here, here's how I, here's how 00:39:09.200 --> 00:39:14.960 I can do that. And if all else fails, you know, I start to Google and I'll just find like, 00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:20.800 I've written like, you know, that tape that I played from 1996 impeachment, I didn't know 00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:26.160 even where to begin. So I was just kind of trying to figure out like, what were the most impassioned 00:39:26.160 --> 00:39:31.520 moments of that debate. And then I was kind of able to find them in write ups and then go search 00:39:31.520 --> 00:39:38.240 and try to find those moments. So the other thing is, you know, think outside the box, like your 00:39:38.240 --> 00:39:45.440 story is a small is a piece of the world at a particular period in time. So again, going back 00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:51.600 to the photograph analogy, like, what did the larger world and larger, like foreground and 00:39:51.600 --> 00:39:58.240 background of the character of the story, whether that be a person or a thing or an idea, like, 00:39:58.240 --> 00:40:03.360 what did it sound like? And what were the larger forces at play that preceded your story that 00:40:03.360 --> 00:40:08.560 came after it? What did those sound like? We've done episodes for the daily where we've reached 00:40:08.560 --> 00:40:13.360 out to people for home videos when we're trying to talk to somebody and we get their their home 00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:19.200 videos if you're really trying to bring somebody to life, like as a child. So think about that as well. 00:40:19.200 --> 00:40:25.680 I see another thing in the chat. Okay, what audio capture stuff. So we use, it's something called 00:40:25.680 --> 00:40:31.600 audio hijack. And you have to have a license for it. But audio hijack is actually this little thing 00:40:31.600 --> 00:40:38.960 down here. I'm not sure how much the license costs. I'm sorry. But but audio hijack also you can use 00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:45.120 for free and 10 minute increments. So that's the other thing. Oh, and there's also, if you, 00:40:45.120 --> 00:40:51.920 let's see, if you search for quick time, this is another way to do it. If you have quick time on 00:40:51.920 --> 00:41:00.480 your computer, you can, let's see, file new audio recording. And it'll make a little audio 00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:04.960 recording via quick time too. So quick time is another resource that you can use, which is very, 00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:10.320 very helpful. And it captures video as well. So I just want to, I can take it off of my 00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:18.880 screen share. Oopsies. I can stop share. There we go. What other, what other questions can I, 00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:24.320 can I answer? I know it's kind of like a lot of stuff and resources and ideas kind of flying 00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:30.160 at you at once. But really, like I said, the possibilities are kind of endless and what you 00:41:30.160 --> 00:41:36.080 can find and what you can do. And there's just, you know, if you're hitting, if you're, if you're 00:41:36.080 --> 00:41:40.800 trying to do a story from a place, like I said, I recommend reaching out to that place's archives. 00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:46.560 You know, you can reach out to local news stations. I've done that before to say, like, 00:41:46.560 --> 00:41:52.080 can we license this clip from you or something like that. So, oh, that's great. So you can, 00:41:52.080 --> 00:41:55.600 you can use audio hijack from Columbia. That's fantastic. Audio hijack is great. 00:41:55.600 --> 00:42:02.400 Just make sure that you, I've had instances where people don't have the same settings if 00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:08.880 you're sharing audio back and forth, and it'll blow out your audio. And it's just white, like static 00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:14.000 noise. And it's the most terrifying, horrifying sound I've ever heard in my entire life. And 00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:18.320 I think my hearing is slightly reduced from it, like popping into my headphones sometimes. So 00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:21.760 if you're working with somebody and you're collaborating, make sure you have the same 00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:27.360 settings set on your audio hijack or else it can get like all distorted and weird. There was, 00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:32.960 like the most stressful night of my life was doing an episode about a presidential debate. 00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:39.360 And we have a sound engineer in London that we send the show to each night to finish it up and 00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:44.080 make it sound pretty and do all these like kind of magical tricks that I have no idea how he knows 00:42:44.080 --> 00:42:48.400 what to do. But we were sending it to him because it was a debate. It was a late night. So it was 00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:53.520 like five o'clock in the morning and the daily publishes by six a.m. And he's in London. He's 00:42:53.520 --> 00:43:00.080 a very kind British man who called us and was like, um, all of the audio is corrupted. So the 00:43:00.080 --> 00:43:05.760 entire debate, all the audio that we're using from the debate, um, was making that blown out 00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:13.280 noise. So we, we barely got the show up by six a.m. So that's just like a, like a reminder to be really 00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:20.160 careful in your settings. So can I answer any questions or is anybody trying to parse through 00:43:20.160 --> 00:43:25.760 something or think through like a scene or something that they're trying to figure out how they can 00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:36.480 bring to life? Books that I said, that's a great question. Um, hmm, I am ashamed to admit, um, 00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:44.320 I have not read any books on audio production. Um, the thing that I, this is going to sound 00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:51.200 extremely cliche and I apologize for it, but it's just audio. Um, the best thing that you can do 00:43:51.200 --> 00:43:56.800 in audio is teach your ear. Like you really, really actually have to train your ear. And what I mean 00:43:56.800 --> 00:44:05.120 by that is play with like editing clips and listening for, um, if you cut a breath off halfway, 00:44:05.120 --> 00:44:12.640 it sounds horrible. It makes a sound. So train your ear to find the sound. If you try to cut out 00:44:12.640 --> 00:44:17.680 somebody's um, and you don't get it the whole way, they sound like a frog. It makes it like a croaking 00:44:17.680 --> 00:44:23.200 sound in their throat. So like train your ear and thinking of that too. And in your tape that you're 00:44:23.200 --> 00:44:29.360 finding as well. So I don't have any books, but the best thing that's ever, how I ever learned is that 00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:33.760 I kind of had no idea what I was doing. And somebody who knew what they were doing sat down with me 00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:39.040 and like watched me actually like physically edit. And then we're listening and they were like, 00:44:39.040 --> 00:44:44.960 do you hear that? That's a bad edit. Like that sounds terrible. Redo it and like redo it in this 00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:50.160 way. And so you might not have access to somebody who, who will be willing to kind of like drill 00:44:50.160 --> 00:44:55.280 into you like that, but spend some time training your ear. There's something I didn't even mention, 00:44:55.280 --> 00:45:02.560 which is pacing. Audio storytelling is actually has like a lot of musicality to it. So there's a lot 00:45:02.560 --> 00:45:09.760 of kind of rhythm that you want to, which kind of takes a little bit of like training and trying 00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:15.600 to learn how to like do like being rhythm too. But as soon as somebody said to me once like, 00:45:15.600 --> 00:45:21.200 as soon as like you're working in audio and you decide to check your phone or you decide to like 00:45:21.200 --> 00:45:26.960 look out the window, unless it's a really reflective moment, like you're doing it wrong. It's going on 00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:32.640 too long. So you need to kind of mess with your pacing a little bit more and just kind of keep 00:45:32.640 --> 00:45:38.480 the listener engaged. So I'm sorry, I don't have a specific book in mind. Mine is just mostly 00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:42.320 then like, we're going to throw you into the fire and make you figure it out on your own. 00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:58.560 Rachel, with regard to training your ear in addition to the daily, do you have other suggestions of 00:45:58.560 --> 00:46:02.960 podcasts you like to listen to that you admire their use of archival tape that folks could listen to? 00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:10.560 Yes, I definitely so I have to admit, I am a bad consumer of other podcasts. Like I will be very, 00:46:10.560 --> 00:46:15.760 very honest about that. And that's because I sit with headphones on my head all day long. And I 00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:22.560 live in tape all day long. And so it's sometimes I just need to give my ears a break. But something 00:46:22.560 --> 00:46:29.280 like Radio Lab, they use archival tape and really kind of creative and listen to their pacing that 00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:33.280 they do because it's usually kind of a fast pace. But then like think about when you want to slow 00:46:33.280 --> 00:46:39.280 down. I think Radio Lab is a really, really good example to listen to when you're trying to figure 00:46:39.280 --> 00:46:44.080 out like, okay, what moments do I want to bring to life? And how do I want to do that? So I would 00:46:44.080 --> 00:46:49.680 definitely recommend Radio Lab for that. And I know there are so many others out there. I just have, 00:46:49.680 --> 00:46:56.160 I have, I am like extremely, people ask me for recommendations for my favorites. And I'm like, 00:46:56.160 --> 00:47:04.240 I'm actually ashamed to admit my listening habits kind of plummeted once I started doing it full 00:47:04.240 --> 00:47:09.840 time. So I just, yeah, I just my ears are like, oh, they're bleeding. 00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:18.320 Well, thank you, Rachel. I've done radio for several decades. So one of the, and it's great to 00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:23.920 hear you because, yes, doing it is really where you learn. But I was just thinking when I used to 00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:29.120 train people, I still have them listen to Norman Corwin from World War Two, or I'd have them listen 00:47:29.120 --> 00:47:35.520 to, you know, let's say the liberation of Buchenwald, just to get the pacing of, you know, and that was 00:47:35.520 --> 00:47:41.040 highly produced radio. And what's your, and your daily is to me, a brilliantly produced radio 00:47:42.160 --> 00:47:48.800 broadcast, broadcast, basically. And so, and so that's why I'm sort of interested in the question 00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:54.080 of, you know, what you can teach people outside of just the practicality of, you know, because 00:47:54.080 --> 00:47:59.040 you're bathed in it every day, you guys are doing it. So, and not everybody's going to do that. So 00:47:59.040 --> 00:48:04.160 like, you know, you're talking about creating montage, you're talking about creating audio, 00:48:04.160 --> 00:48:09.280 sound, art, if you will. And so that's just why I was just asking questions about what, you know, 00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:15.120 the average layperson could sort of get their head around to sort of get, get started. Sure. 00:48:15.120 --> 00:48:20.240 Yeah, maybe, you know, think about whatever podcast that you all listen to and kind of 00:48:20.240 --> 00:48:26.160 sit down with it and maybe take hopefully what I hope it's been helpful today, but maybe take what 00:48:26.160 --> 00:48:30.960 I've told you today and think about like, break it down and be like, okay, I hear they use tape in 00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:36.080 this part. And I think I know why they were doing it. Like, like, I'll say it again and again, but 00:48:36.080 --> 00:48:41.840 like the intentionality of the tape that they're using. So take like one of your favorite pieces 00:48:41.840 --> 00:48:47.360 of audio that you've listened to and kind of dissect it. And really kind of analyze like, well, 00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:52.320 I wonder why they brought in the archival tape here, and kind of think about like, what are they 00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:58.320 trying to achieve in this particular moment and using this particular tape. I find that dissecting 00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:03.840 things as well as just, I also like, you know, I tried like when I watched like a Netflix show or 00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:08.240 something like that, I also looked to that for like inspirations for story structure. So, 00:49:08.240 --> 00:49:13.920 so think about like, you know, even television too can can be helpful, I guess, to a certain degree 00:49:13.920 --> 00:49:18.640 of just like thinking about structuring things. But yeah, just think about what you listen to 00:49:18.640 --> 00:49:25.280 and think about how like, what are they actually up to here and what are they trying to achieve? 00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:35.280 [BLANK_AUDIO]